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I’ve had a rough couple of days and I’m sorry I wasn’t able to post very well, but I really want to update everyone. I had some trouble at work actually that was completely uncalled for but I’m not going to go into too much detail because it’s over now and it makes me tired. But I went to the doctor’s yesterday and they did a whole bunch of tests. Pulling blood out of my arm. Pushing on my stomach. Breathing into tubes. EKG. And I’m going to a heart and a lung doctor soon as everyone scrambles to figure out what’s happening with me.

Anyway, Tuesday night Tyler and I hung out together and it was great. He made stir fry dinner and bought my new shampoo, (it was an accident and I paid him back by buying him a slushie last night) and during the making of the meal we discovered something fascinating. I opened the cupboard door to get a coverpan for the cooking tofu and mentioned how much it reaked in that cupboard. Well, there was a sack of potatoes growing in the cupboard that have been around since Thanksgiving. It made me smile when he said, “Thanksgiving was at the other house.” I took and will post pictures later. So then we sat and talked into the wee hours, but he brought up something interesting that I would like to bring up here.

Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future.

It is a popular misconception that determinism necessarily entails that humanity or individual humans have no influence on the future and its events (a position known as Fatalism); however, determinists believe that the level to which human beings have influence over their future is itself dependent on present and past. Causal determinism is associated with, and relies upon, the ideas of Materialism and Causality. Some of the philosophers who have dealt with this issue are William James, Pierre-Simon Laplace, Arthur Schopenhauer, Omar Khayyám, David Hume, Thomas Hobbes, Immanuel Kant, Paul Henri Thiry, Baron d’Holbach and, more recently, Daniel Dennett, John Searle, Michelle Kozenieki and Ted Honderich.

The exact meaning of the term determinism has historically been subject to various interpretations. Some, called Incompatibilists, view determinism and free will as mutually exclusive. Believing in determinism requires one to believe free will to be an illusion, is the position known as Hard Determinism. Others, labeled Compatibilists, (or Soft Determinists) believe that the two ideas can be coherently reconciled. (Incompatibilists who accept free will but reject determinism are called Libertarians — not to be confused with the political sense). Most of this disagreement is due to the fact that the definition of free will, like that of determinism, varies. Some feel it refers to the metaphysical truth of independent agency, whereas others simply define it as the feeling of agency that humans experience when they act. For example, David Hume argued that while it is possible that one does not freely arrive at one’s set of desires and beliefs, the only meaningful interpretation of freedom relates to one’s ability to translate those desires and beliefs into voluntary action.

Causal (or nomological) determinism is the thesis that future events are necessitated by past and present events combined with the laws of nature. Such determinism is sometimes illustrated by the thought experiment of Laplace’s demon. Imagine an entity that knows all facts about the past and the present, and knows all natural laws that govern the universe. Such an entity might, under certain circumstances, be able to use this knowledge to foresee the future, down to the smallest detail. Causal determinism has a subtle relationship with predictability. (Perfect) predictability implies strict determinism, but lack of predictability does not necessarily imply lack of determinism. Limitations on predictability could alternatively be caused by lack of information, excessive complexity, etc.

Those of you interested in more about Determinism can read the rest of the wikipedia article where most of this blurb came from.

When Tyler started explaining this theory to me, he started it by saying, “I don’t believe in free will.” So of course I thought he meant fate, but then he started to explain determinism to me and I got to thinking: so basically what he’s saying is there’s only one choice that you could have made based on what’s happened to you in the past. He put it really well when he said, “Fate is based on the future. Determinism is based on the past.” It doesn’t matter HOW you get to the end result, the point is you will get there. That is fate. Determinism is every little thing that happened before you leads to only one possible, logical result. Making every choice you make already determinable. But it’s so subtle, and most are so small, we can’t predict the future because there’s just so much that comes into account. But determinism denounces free will.

So, to me, it seems like when he puts it that way, it’s like common sense that my actions or things that have happened to me in the past are going to directly effect my decisions in the future. But how can life be that basic? Doesn’t that scream that life is too simple? Even so, it fits too comfortably into Nihilism, which is what I was whining about before. For some reason, I’m extremely elated.

All these thoughts I’ve been feeling and having can be categorized, such as Nihilism, and for the first time that feeling of categorization and fitting into something really, really makes me happy.

Why?

What do you think? About Determinism, Nihilism, Fate, anything.
Educate me.

Posted in her life, philosophy |
8 burnt buns ready to leave the oven ♥
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Catherine spoke on March 29th, 2007 6:53 pm with the words:

I have never been a fan of nihilism or determinism. Ever since a young age, I’ve strongly believed that my life is in my own hands - that’s why I go to college, pursue an education, build relationships with people, etcetera. I choose these things based on my morality and the things I like - not because some red string binds me to them.

It is true that the future is dependent on the things that precede it, but these things, at any moment, are subject to change. There is no such thing as a “single instant” in a universe- such a concept is infinitely small, and its frame of reference is infinitely changing.

It is not surprising, however, that someone such as Immanuel Kant would use this concept of an instance as a basis for a “theory”. I’ve read some of his works, and they are frustratingly vague and contradictory. He talks about things being based on “subjectivity”, which is an impossibility (like building a house atop water, or even worse, air), as it is infinitely changing.

There is absolutely no support for a theory such as determinism. While it is true that the universe is a series of cause and effect, each cause is preceded by a choice. True, one can argue that some unknown element, which we perceive to be “choice”, but is actually fate, is guiding our actions, but there is no evidence to suggest that (simply speculation). Such an assertion, however, denies the usefulness of our senses (something Kant did pretty often), and basically handicaps humans from reaching any sort of understanding of their world. It is, in short, a theory totally irrelevant to living in a world where we survive by our senses.

Here is what we know: we are conscious beings (look at skyscrapers, clothing, art, and you have proof), and we HAVE to make choices to survive; in fact, survival is a choice by its very nature (for humans, that is). Any philosophy that denies choice cripples humanity. It is counter-productive, and not worth espousing!

I personally just see it as another side to the Christian coin. It talks about “free will”, yet denies it at the same time. It alludes to a “guiding hand”, which it calls fate, the Japanese call “hitsuzen”, and the Christians call “God”, but essentially, it all means the same thing to me.

Anyway, you should pick up some Kant for yourself, and try to make sense of it (if you haven’t). As for a good philosophy, you should check out Objectivism (okay, I know a lot of people abhor it, but give it a chance!), which is really the only one that makes sense (though I disagree with it on a few points). It will put an end to all of your doubts about life’s meaninglessness. ;)

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Catherine spoke on March 29th, 2007 6:54 pm with the words:

P.S. That picture of you is great, gotta say!

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Bonamy spoke on March 29th, 2007 7:13 pm with the words:

I guess the only thing I want to clarify really quickly before I take off from work is-

Fate and Determinism are two very, very different things.

To me the choice everyone supposedly begins with stems from what? Thin air? Everything that has happened to you, around you, and choices you’ve previously made will educate you, evolve you- how can that not seem like a basic and logical principle?

I can’t finish because now I’m on my way home but I will check out Objectivism when I get home. Thank you for commenting darling!

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Bronwyn spoke on March 29th, 2007 7:22 pm with the words:

Awesome photo, as always!

I loved this entry. God, I haven’t used my brain in weeks.

So, at the risk of looking like a fool I’ll just write what my reactions were. Although I think it’s a really interesting idea, and I see where it comes from, I just don’t agree with Determinsm. To some extent I can easily see how the past has put me where I am, no matter how small the event. But I don’t think it’ll influence my decisions or there is a predetermined conclusion for me. Sure, if I got bitten by a dog as a kid and thus was afraid of them and then later in life ran away from one and ended up falling over a cliff, I see how that happened. x] But looking at my situation right now, anything a choose, whether it be going to Guelph or returning to Queen’s or just moving to a random city and starting work, I don’t think my decision is based on the past at all. It’s based on the here and now, and whatever I ended up choosing would take me somewhere completely different in life. Different job, location, friends, and life!

I may have missed some fundamental points in the arguement but that’s my first reaction after reading it in a somewhat skimming way. My brain isn’t used to such words after months out of school. x]

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Catherine spoke on March 29th, 2007 8:46 pm with the words:

“choices you’ve previously made will educate you, evolve you- how can that not seem like a basic and logical principle?”
This is totally true, but not just a belief signature to determinism! And besides, people still have the choice. We can condition ourselves to act a certain way, we can observe a situation objectively, and we can either choose the best course of action, or the worst. That is why there are those who succeed- and those who fail - because we have the choice to do so.

You can educate a person to choose the best course of action, or you can condition the person to be the perfect little soldier - either way, because they have free will, there is no guarantee as to what their actions will be.

This topic has been explored deeply by psychologists, under then name of “[classical] conditioning”, and also as the idea that people seek rewards for their actions. And while they have showed signs that people will do things that produce a positive outcome, or will react to things the way they have learned to react, there is no proof that the person had to act this way, and they have never been able to produce data with a 100% success rate. What this basically means is classical conditioning is useful, especially if the person is receptive to it, but inherent in humans is the phenomenon to choose, which means they can either choose to accept conditioning or not to.

Ideally, choices should be based on reason, experience and productivity, but it is by no means a requirement. And I’d much prefer to think that my choices were a result of my own reasoning, not conditioning! :)

I’ve tried making sense of determinism, but I must admit that I’m bad at making sense of anything that is circular and, essentially, irrelevant! While I consider philosophy a necessary tool of survival, I think that the idea of determinism basically means we will do what we do, and with that in mind, there would be no reason to espouse any philosophy!

I think the analogy to chess (made in the wikipedia article) is really not giving enough credit to the players, because the best chess players are the ones with plans, not the ones that ended up somewhere by determinant circumstances! :)

I think the most essential paradox in determinism, though, is that no choice or thought could exist in a universe devoid of free will. Afterall, choice, and free will, are deliberate, and basically synonymous!

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Jade spoke on March 30th, 2007 4:33 am with the words:

For some reason I am completely content and okay with my belief that all this work at life is for nothing and that everything I do is inconsequential just like all life is inconsequential. Some people then think, “why try?” and get depressed but I am fine with trying to stick around and do things with my life simply because I get pleasure now and as I have no idea what lies in the future, what else is there to do because make the present as nice as possible? What is the title for this? Hedonism? ;) All these zillions of philosophies are interesting but they are all so contradictory and unprovable, “explaining” ultimately unknowable things, that I just read them as I read a novel, much like religion. And if I found one I agreed with: So what? It would have to say “Nobody knows anything” and why do I need to put a title to that?

I used to be very into thinking about life, about meaning, like everyone else; now that I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to know anything and ultimately this circus probably means nothing, I feel there is nothing wrong with seeking things people often consider shallow. I’d like to have a partner I love (I don’t mind if love is just a drug on our mind to help us make and keep good babies) and have a lot of money so that I can get around this ridiculous game we play with pieces of numbered paper. I want to be able to do things I want to do without jumping hoops that other people just like me made up.

Anyway I’m babbling, but I guess the point I was slowly meandering toward is that I feel much better ridding myself of agonzing thoughts about meanings to things. I have my ideas, but I don’t let them take hold on my life since they are most likely just as meaningless as every other idea. Living with the thought that probably nothing matters and this is all a game is conducive to freedom in action and mind.

All of this B.S I just wrote probably fits neatly under some title or other, but what does it matter?

I’m sleepy bye :D

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Kindigo spoke on March 30th, 2007 1:13 pm with the words:

Are you having those twinges in your chest again? Those hitch things?

And you promised to tell me about the work situation! Where’s my email!

‘Educate you’? Well, ‘it reeked in that cupboard…’

So determinism is, what, the exact opposite of the Trousers of Time theory? But I’m surprised, because this description of ‘determinism’ is somewhat how I start thinking of the world when I get thinking about time paradoxes (you know me, every other day month or so…)

But when I think about it logically, it’s really redundant. It’s a quaint idea to think that what color shirt you put on in the morning will affect who talks to you at dinner, and then affect whether someone driving a car down the block while you walk past is momentarily distracted by your flamboyant Hawaiian pattern at that critical moment and hits someone crossing the street… (and that’s an idea I’ve toyed with in original fiction)… but…I mean, what?

Free will is an illusion, because what shirt you put on today has been predecided for you by past events? Events like: your mother teaching you not to wear dirty clothes from the floor; you deciding to wear green because it will piss off your father; you not having the shirt you want because last week your sister borrowed it and hasn’t given it back yet….all these past events determine what’s happening now, yes. even in a small way, where whether Mom picked up a dropped toy for you as a child instead of letting you pick it up yourself, creating certain irreversible pathways trhough the synapses of your brain that determine the very way you form thoughts.

I guess my question is: how is this a new concept? Doesn’t it have the old name of ’cause and effect’? And how does it cancel out free will, which is what we call the way past events have formed us into the people we are today?

Do you mean things like whims don’t exist, because tommorow if I suddenly decide to change my shirt it was because of this post that happened yesterday, affecting my decision and denying me free will? That’s not what free will is.

Free will is my choice to think; Hey, I wanna wear green; Oh yeah, I remember that post yesterday about determinism….why don’t I wear red instead?

And the free will is the choice to say ‘red it is’ or ‘fuck it, green.’

Free will is the label we as human beings give the way our thoughts work. We as human beings base everything on past perceptions and experiences- that’s how human beings work. That’s how everything in our dimension works. and because a basic law of the universe says ‘Things happen—>therefore, other things happen because of it’ (which, by the way, seems pretty DUH to me) does not alter the fact that I have the perception of being able to make a choice- I can fly to California tomorrow or walk to Berlin, and the fact that one of the two choices is limited/affected by past circumstances (location, money, desire, ability) it doesn’t change the fact that I can make the choice.

Conclusion: Determinism does not preclude free will. Shit happens–> other shit happens because of it= I’m going to take a shit cos I ate prunes today–>tomorrow I’ll decide not to eat prunes.

Tomorrow I’ll still have to take a shit. Doesn’t stop me from not eating the prunes.

ps. I’ve decided I don’t like small white text on a dark background.

pps. If determinism is true, then any person suitably trained/skilled/gifted at recognizing which subtle changes affect which subtle/grandiose effect, WOULD be be to make a noticable difference. Hence, the amazing plotline that’s been eating my brain since I stopped NaNo. And this post will only make it worse.
Can’t sleep, the plunnies will eat me- plz send help

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eluis spoke on March 30th, 2007 2:31 pm with the words:

David Hume was more than a bit confused about his own theories himself, y’know. It’s more or less like saying that a man who finds himself tied to an iron chain only got himself in such a situation because he *wanted* to, even if not consciously. (I might have read this - it might even be an actual theory of Hume, I can’t really tell for sure. I don’t keep track of my philosophical readings as well as I should.)

Kant, on the other hand, had a clearer view of morality and reason, good will and free will… but his attempts at defining the links between it (the “categorical imperative”) are too detached from what one can call “humanity” - I mean, the fellow always woke up at the very same hour, always took his morning walks at the same exact pace, always did everything exacly as he did the day before (for DECADES), and died a virgin. He probably wanted everyone to live in sterile harmony, his view of “universal morality”. And even if his upbringing had been less strict - the very idea of such an universal morality, even as an end and not a beginning, is a roadblock to free will.

Anyway. Everytime someone is struck by lightning, Hume is proven wrong (”ah, but he wandered into an open field”, he’d say - well, choose your freak accident of choice), and everytime a scantly clad woman winks at me and slips me her telephone number while her boyfriend looks the other way, I throw Kant’s “critique of practical reason” into the dustbin. (ok, so this one doesn’t happen as often as I’d wish to, but you get the point)

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